Culture. Everybody Wants To Be Something Else.

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  1.  
    It always seems to me that most people, no matter what their profession, often desire to do something else. You'll often hear stories of high-flying professionals trading in their careers to be farmers or something.

    So what do you guys want to be? Do you want to be in the game you're in for the rest of your working life, or have you got latent plans to move into another area?
  2.  
    I am happy with what I am doing, but want to make more decisions of my own, and thus want my own company at some point. Spent some time (finally) catching up on new tech * in the industry too, so it's nice to have an excitement about all the cool new toys around ... The web is a really exciting, and broad, industry I think, so its a fun and ambitious place to work, IMHO.

    One thing I will say, having a new 'stream' of learning thats completely unrelated to the day job, (in my case my Japanese), really helps you to focus more on your day job, as you find you aren't always dealing with the same old problems. Its very refreshing to be able to be constructive in a completely different way, (art, musical instrument, language) and it really aids concentration.

    * Rails, (I've already written a fair amount of ruby stuff for Sinatra), CouchDB, Backbone JS (which is fantastic BTW) ...
  3.  
    To elaborate on my second point a bit, before coming to Tokyo, I would get home and hack away at a side project so much that I'd get sick of coding for a while, and slow write down. This would seep into my day-today work to a degree, and it would take a break before I could really reach pull speed again.

    Now, I quite often don't code at home, but feel like I am still 'working' my brain because I am studying Japanese, (particularly working on the Kanji is good for me I've found) which means I approach both things with more verve, as the variety is there.

    Looking around, alot of successful people here seem to do the same, with a musical instrument/DJing, art etc. It makes sense now.
  4.  
    Funnily enough there was a thing in one the Sunday papers recently about how people who have a distinct personal activity (playing an instrument, learning a language, etc) are happier individuals because they have a purpose to their lives outside of their working life.

    Beseku, out of interest, do you actually think it's viable for an old person to stay in your industry? I guess what I'm saying is that, the web game is still relatively young, so there's not really a track record of how people grow old in the industry. Bearing in mind that our generation is likely to end up working much later in life than our parents (maybe the concept of retirement will be completely outdated?), can you see yourself still being in the industry when you're 50, 60 or 70 years old? Maybe it's because LCD Soundsystem's 'Losing My Edge' is playing in the background, but I struggle to see how an old man could still be relevant in such an industry. Isn't it inevitable that the only eventual avenue is for a move into management?

    The thought of a 65 year old man sitting at a computer cursing the rendering of a website in Internet Explorer 23 seems surreal.
  5.  
    I don't see myself as being 65 and coding away but I think, with our generation, it will be exactly like previous genrations and things like engineers/mechanics etc. My dad was a mechanic working for Coke and did the same job for forty-odd years, twenty at the same place. Sitting at a computer doing a low- to mid-grade job is exactly the same and it is already being commodotized into sweatshop like labour in countries in Asia.

    I see myself using the experience gained in the early years of my life, cursing IE 6, helping me to explain to the yoof and clients reasons why we should be supporting IE 23. You'd be suprised how many places seem to lack any kind of technical strategist/lead who has worked with multiple client types on multiple platforms etc.
  6.  

    Interesting point that. Can't imagine 65 year old sitting hand coding a web site and going through the hell of making it all work but for anything really you would imagine that the more experienced and aged (if they have progressed suitably throughout their working life) move upstairs and do the top level work and the youngsters do the lackey work such as coding down in't basement?

    I know design is a lot different but with a tech grasp and knowledge of new standards etc... spose there is no reason why some psycho code loving grandpa would want to continue!

  7.  
    The only real commercial industry I can think of where older people tend to be still respected for their creative output is Architecture. Obviously in areas like fashion and art, some big names can survive into old age, but in everyday industries I think creative output is generally seen as being produced by younger people.

    I honestly can't see clients walking into an agency and upon seeing that it's staffed with 55 year old programmers & designers, think that they're going to be getting cutting edge contemporary solutions for their businesses. So where do all the over-the-hill designers & programmers go, other than into management? They can't all go into management as there wouldn't be enough positions, so where will the cast-offs go?
  8.  

    Having turned 40 this year, I have many long thoughts about 'sitting in my wee room at 65 making websites' as you mention above. I can see it, but I don't think I want to...

    I've done the 'management' thing already to a certain extent, when my company had 3-4 other staff, and my days became more about managing them and the business than actually doing stuff. Trouble was, I didn't like it - I like being hands-on. So that's the other dilemma - if you don't feel cut out to 'move up'. I mean, I don't mind managing a team of people, but I still like to be involved in the actual making - I don't want to do spreadsheets all day.

    I think about doing something completely different quite often, but the point I always come back to is why, at this stage of my life, go and do something I have to learn, and might not be that good at, when I have something that totally fits my aptitude and that I have an enormous amount of experience in? Seems crazy to throw away all that experience and learning. Plus, nothing particularly jumps out at me in terms of yearning to do it (I mean, like those people on Masterchef who always say "I'm an accountant but I love to cook and always wanted my own restaurant"). I've been 'into' computers since I was programming a Commodore 64 at 12. It's just what I do, and what I've always been good at.

    I do worry sometimes that my main 'hobby' outside of working (in the limited time that family life allows) is videogames, and that all I do is stare at screens every waking moment ( funny if it wasn't true ). I think sometimes perhaps I should join a brass band, or go hill-walking, or something different.

  9.  
    I'm tired of this bollocks. I'd rather be a jazz musician.
  10.  

    Can't really see me throwing my toys out of the pram and taking up nuclear physics. It's just not going to happen. I wanted to be 'a designer' from an early age. It's not something I turn on at 9 and switch off at 5. Like Warren says, "seems crazy to throw away all that experience and learning".

    I hate computers now, they really get on my tits but I couldn't do what I need to do without them, so that will no doubt continue in one form or another. I am hands on, but I can also direct quite well so who knows.

    I have wondered wether my job title should reflect my age (like will I be a 'design consultant' at 55, that sort of crap). Then the other day I decided that I couldn't give a fuck about this sort of thing, as it's all stepladder bullshit. My job now is a dream, we work when we want and do what we want when we want (holidays, look after my son, run a couple of other projects). I have no desire to work in a graphics sweatshop ever again.

    And then I have a cellar full of machines from another age that I tinker with for hours on end. So maybe I will become one of those strange old blokes who strip down engines for fun. I know for one that I don't want to go to British Printing Society conventions as all those people are absolute freaks.

  11.  
    I think for 'traditional' design, it's a lot more straightforward. Just take a cosy CD position somewhere big and make arbitrary decisions based on graphs no one understands and the inane witterings of Marketing 'professionals'.

    That's my plan.

    As for hobbies, I think that's true, though more relevant in 'boring' industries. As much as I curse my job, it's still a lot more 'fun' than a traditional office monkey wage-slave lifestyle.
  12.  
    Regrettably this is my favourite, or should that be least favourite, subject at the moment. In fact it's consuming my thoughts most of the time.

    What is hitting home the hardest is the amount of reward in relation to the work put in. It seems too low. I see friends who are starting to earn a serious amount of money, yet their daily productivity is probably a fraction of mine, and their jobs don't require a massive amount of brain power. My wife openly admits that her job is easy - yet she gets paid more than I do, plus she has a PA to take the strain most of the time. I earn a decent amount of money, but it's getting to the point where it is plateauing, and that makes me very uncomfortable, more so because I don't see a solution to it.

    I guess the solution, for most people, is to do it for themselves. I can't blame anyone for beginning to resent working hard to line another persons pockets.

    Someone I know has recently left their design job to start their own creative company, and I am insanely jealous, however I have responsibilities, and he doesn't. I have a wife, a son, a house, a nice car, all the things you're supposed to have, but because of them I feel like, or actually I am tied to working in a job/industry I truthfully have no passion for anymore. Worse than that I actually can't stand it. Design in school and University was cool, it was romantic, and it was the only thing I wanted to do, but that was before I'd experienced dealing with completely incompetent and infuriating clients on a daily basis, where work spills over into the early hours and isn't compensated.

    I need a change, and I really need it now.
  13.  
    Shunk

    Couple of years ago I wish I had trained as an architect, but knowing how much time that would involve and the costs it just wasn't viable. Plus I'd probably design a building and it would collapse.

    Jim's plan is good. If I'm honest I do want to gradually move away from being 'hands on' but the reality is this probably won't happen.

    But, the cuts are coming which will decimate our client base so while I'm optimistic and happy right now, the next few months may force me either onto the dole or into a situation where I'm fighting for a shelf stacking job at the local Asda with every other cunt.
  14.  
    Whats interesting, given the timing of this thread, is that this week I'm actually doing all of the front-end templates for a big client job for the first time in a very long time. I'm really quite enjoying it.

    Except for fucking IE6 obviously.
  15.  

    Andrew, sounds like we need to have a pint sometime - there's a lot in common there. :)

    The one upside you have I guess is your wife is earning (and in fact, more that you), so you have some 'security' in terms of heading in a new direction. My wife is only back at work after 7 years of childcare for our two children (I wrote 'first two' there, and then thought "WTF? ONLY two") and even then, she's working as a classroom assistant, 3 hours a day, term-time only, just above minimum wage, so the 'bread-winning' still falls to me.

    I sometimes fantasise about going and doing something really different, but on top of any other hurdles I might face, starting 'at the bottom' in the lowest paid position is just not viable for us. I look enviously at people who can do that "give up their job and go to Australia for a year" thing (as someone I know did recently), because they only have to provide for themselves and that's it.

  16.  

    A few years ago I began taking classes and making stained glass windows and sun catchers etc... As i don't have the room in my house atm I cant really keep that up but I really miss the whole process as it is extremely interesting / creative / calming / rewarding. So in an ideal world I would use my creative ideas in a totally different way. I would much rather be going to a studio / shed every day putting the kettle on, listening to some tunage / talk radio and tinkering with that historical craft.

    I also bought an oil painting kit before xmas as a present to myself... still in the box! usual story.

    (excessive use of / throughout that.)

  17.  
    Warren and Andrew - you need to, in the language of the yoof of today, MTFU!

    Responsibilities is just an excuse - if you really want to go for something do it. You only live once.

    I switched careers completely at 27, going from a well paid job in Financial Services, to junior web development earning £13k. I had to support a wife, who worked part time, and 2 kids on that. It wasn't easy at all, but the mrs was very supportive and we could both see the end goal.

    6 years later I was basically running a small agency for someone else as MD. I literally walked out of that job one friday afternoon after a row with the owner who was being a total cock. Again the Mrs was understanding and I set up Engage Interactive the Monday after. That was 4 years ago now, Alex came onboard later that year and its doing really well. I wouldn't ever consider working for anyone else again, but its a leap of faith you have to be prepared to take. Yes, you might have to make sacrifices at first, but its really important to be happy in what you do.

    So no, there isn't really anything else I'd rather do, otherwise I'd be doing it....well, other than be a Pro Tour Cyclist but I'm about 15 years too late for that!
  18.  

    A topic very close to this forum's heart I see ;-)

    I enjoy my job, but what I do has changed massively over the last five years, and I'd be incredibly surprised if it didn't continue to change massively over the next five.

    The only thing I don't do in a work context that I'd like to do more of is travelling: I'm fascinated to see how our industry contrasts in different countries around the world. I love travelling, but not sightseeing, if that makes sense. I dig just hanging about in new places. Would love to live in Rome, Paris, Tokyo, Chicago, Cape Town, Buenos Aires... and so on.

    I think one of the reasons I don't get bored is because I do quite a lot of stuff outside of work: going to the football's a big thing for me (off to Barcelona on Monday), playing football, art, music, film ... I've got great friends and a wonderful partner -- I think it's really important not to let your work control your life.

    But most of all, I think it's important to have things you want to do, want to achieve ... realistic things. I don't believe at all in roadmaps or life-plans, but setting a target and working towards it all the time is incredibly rewarding. Learning a language, an instrument, planning a holiday, whatever it is. The only times I ever feel particularly unsatisfied is when I don't have anything on the horizon.

  19.  
    Sagalout, with all due respect, I've done some similar stuff in my time. At 27 I left a well-paid media job in London, and came back to Belfast on 14k a year. After eventually working my way back up to about 30k, I left a "Head of Digital Media" job to start my own agency with a friend, and went back down initially to 17k a year.

    That was 10 years ago. In that time, the partnership dissolved, I carried on, got to 4 staff, took on an expensive lease, 3 staff left in the space of 5-6 months (yeah, THANKS NATE ;) ), leaving me paying 10k a year for 925sq ft of office with me in it. Ended up 10k OD on the business, maxed out on personal OD/CCs, supporting wife and two kids. Took a job, kept working weekends to clear debts (finally clear), left job, and now find myself working in the shell of what I started 10 years ago.

    I could staff up again, but then I'd need an office and all the hassle that comes with both staff and an office. Once bitten, twice shy, and all that.

    Listen, I'm not saying poor me. But this isn't someone sitting in a job whining because I can't catch a break. I took that "leap of faith" already, as you say, and it didn't work out. Why not? Who knows? Maybe some luck, maybe I just don't have the smarts/skills to make it work in the first place.

    You've clearly got those skills - Engage make some brilliant, impressive stuff. But I don't think business is just a case of "if you build it they will come", or "if you really want something you can make it happen" - for all the successful entrepreneurs that did that, there's plenty more who tried and failed. And I speak as someone who spent their teenage years (15-16) sitting in an attic writing computer games for the Commodore 64, when I should have been drinking cider and chasing girls. I've been driven about my career since then - when others around me faffed through life not really fussed. Many of those are more successful than me now!

    So, if you still think I'm making excuses fair enough, but I don't think the only ingredient for success is "wanting it bad enough".
  20.  
    I want to do about half a dozen different things. So I do them. Where's this "one career / one job at a time" idea come from anyway? Never understood it.

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